Layla Gatens: Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for coming down. We're just starting a little bit late just so that everyone could arrive and get a drink and get settled. Yes, but thank you for coming. My name's Layla, and this is Dan. We're going to be talking about Dan's project this evening. We'll go into the project details in a little bit. We thought we'd start by introducing ourselves and then just run through a couple of housekeeping bits as well.

Just to introduce Dan. Dan Guthrie is a Stroud-raised, London-based artist who often works with words and moving image to investigate representations and misrepresentations of Black Britishness. Guthrie's work has explored subjects such as family photographs and parish records, experimenting with notions of what can and can't be presented on screen. His new body of work, Empty Alcove/Rotting Figure, was exhibited at Spike Island, Bristol from 8th February to the 11th of May 2025 and will be presented at Chisenhale Gallery in London from the 6th of June to the 17th of August 2025.

One of the titular works, Empty Alcove, is currently on view at SVA's John Street Gallery until the 18th of May, so just around the corner. Just to give a little bit more context about the project we'll be speaking about this evening, Guthrie was part of Stroud District Council's Contested Heritage Review Panel from 2021 to 2022, which asked for the public's opinion on the Blackboy Clock and went on to chair the Council's community task force from 2023 to 2024, overseeing the installation of a new plaque for the clock which went up in December 2024.

Dan Guthrie: Cool. I'm going to introduce Layla. Layla Gatens is a curator and facilitator interested in developing projects which explore how art can be used as a tool for social change and transformation. She is currently Senior Curator at the Wilson Art Gallery and Museum, where she's developing a new program of contemporary art exhibitions and commissions. She was previously Curator of Contemporary Art at the Holburne Museum, where she curated exhibitions by Lubaina Himid, Diedrick Brackens, Nicolas Party, and Joshua Dunckel, amongst others. From 2019 to 2023, she developed Radio Ballads, a series of film commissions with Rory Pilgrim, Sonia Boyce, Ilona Sagar, and Helen Cammock, and Everything Worthwhile is Done with Other People by Rehana Zaman at Serpentine Galleries, and has previously held curatorial roles at Spike Island and Chisenhale Gallery. Recent publications include How We Hold, We Rise: Voice and Survivorship, and Radio Ballads.

LG: Thank you. Yes, and so just a couple of housekeeping bits about this evening. After this evening's conversation, we will open the discussion to the audience with an informal Q&A. We also just wanted to emphasize that this is a space where ideas can be discussed openly and safely, and there's an expectation of mutual respect and anything other than that won't be tolerated. Whilst we won't be showing anything racist on screen, we will be discussing racism and racist imagery during this conversation, so we encourage you to, if you need to take a break or anything, just to take a step outside. There's a garden area out there behind us. Cool.

Yes, we've written down some questions that we wanted to discuss tonight. Yes, to start us off, Dan, I think just to give some more context on the Clock, we know this body of work revolves around the Blackboy Clock, which is up the hill around the corner, and it's still on public display here in Stroud. For anyone here who's maybe unfamiliar with the Clock's history, could you just give us a quick rundown of what the object looks like, where it is, and how it came to be on display in the present day?

DG: Cool, yes. Just a quick show of hands, does anyone know where the Clock is? I'm guessing everyone knows about it? Cool. Okay. Just the baseline understanding, so we've all got it. It's about 10 minutes' walk up the hill from here at the top of Nelson Street. It's called the Blackboy Clock because it incorporates a Blackboy figure into its design, a childlike figure about that high with red lips, dark black skin, the gold leaf skirt. The Clock was assembled by a watchmaker called John Miles in 1774 for the front of a house he used to live on, which was on Kendrick Street in Stroud. In fact, the intersection of Kendrick Street and the high street, between Mountain Warehouse and where that new estate agent is.

It was then moved to the front of the Duke of York, which used to be a pub but is no longer a pub, on Nelson Street, and it's on the front of what was originally the Castle Street National School in a purpose-built alcove, which then over time became the Stroud Teacher's Centre-- it was part of Stroud Art College-- and it's now residential flats on Blackboy House. The Clock was put there in 1844, and it was restored in 1977 and 2004, and yes, very much still on public display at the moment.

LG: Cool. Did you want to go through the slides and images.

DG: Oh yes. In fact, I can click through some useful images. These are some of the headlines when the Clock was restored over the years. We have Blackboy's Revival, which was sort of a public call to arms. These are all from the Stroud News and Journal. That was in the 1940s, just after World War II. Offer to Restore the Black Boy, that was 1961, and that was when a clock expert came to Stroud to view the object to see whether it could be restored.

Experts Are Restoring, that was 1974, which was to coincide with the 200th anniversary of the clock's assembly by John Miles, and then it was actually restored. Ringing Out The Hour, that was in 1977. Fears for Future of Blackboy Clock, that was in the late '90s. That's when it was part of Stroud Art School. Then, It's About Time the Clock Worked Again, that was 2004. I guess that was the pre-history, let's say pre-2020. Then come 2020, obviously, Colston's toppling was a big factor in starting up conversations about statues in our public spaces.

I was part of a council-led consultation that asked this consultation, asking what we should do with the Blackboy Clock amongst other things in the Stroud district. These are some of the headlines when that launched. We have The Guardian at the top, The Times, The Telegraph, and then the Daily Mail at the bottom with the anti-racism campaigners demanding the removal, claiming it's an offensive relic and traumatic for people of color.

The consultation got 1,600 responses, which I don't know how much you know about council consultations, normally if it's a pothole it's 20 people. Some of the responses I've heard, I've just grabbed some of the snappy one-liners. We have “destroyed with a hammer and chucked in the sea TBH." "It should be removed to a museum with appropriate interpretation, perhaps replaced by a plaque explaining the history." "As long as it's taken down, I don't particularly care. I'm not sure if there's any benefits to putting it in a museum." "The clock and statue must remain as part of the town's history." "I disagree with the national need to destroy or remove contextual historical architecture." Another one that's pro-museum, someone saying, "I think it should stay because it has significance."

One of my, I don't know if favorite's the word, but one that sticks out, "There are no slaves in Stroud, and there are no sons and daughters of slaves. Everyone who's campaigning has never been a slave," and yes, simply, "The statue should be removed." Essentially, everyone who wrote in all of those 1,600 responses had a big strength of feeling, Everyone had an emotion that they were trying to put down.

The outcome of the consultation was that 77% of people wanted to see it removed, of that, 20% wanted to see it destroyed, but it was remove and put it in a museum with the other 22% saying it should stay where it is, either with no information or with new information. That led to headlines such as this, everything from BBC at the top to recommend it being removed, and then GB News, I think The Times again, and then Daily Mail at the bottom. Yes, trying to remove history.

That sums up the strength of feeling. The Clock is very much still where it is. The council are still trying to pursue its removal, but as of December 2024, we have a new notice board up here that was written by myself and local residents that sets out a brief history of the Clock in the blue area at the top, and then an overview of the debate surrounding it in 2020, and 2021, 2022, and a map that connects the Clock and the anti-slavery arch on the other side of town. Yes, that was my five-minute Powerpoint of how we got to where we are today.

LG: Yes, no, that's really helpful, I think, to actually see those headlines and, yes, the really strong feelings people have about this clock. I think talking about the artwork and the project that you've built around your activism and work in the community, dealing with that and the response to the Clock, I wanted to talk to you about this body of work that you've built and the distinctively different projects and outputs that form this research and project. One is a video installation and the other is an online platform, so I thought we could start by talking about the two works, Empty Alcove and Rotting Figure-

DG: Yes, of course.

LG: -and how you came to making those into the works.

DG: Let's start with Empty Alcove, which is the one that's currently over at SVA at John Street. Here's a picture of it in Spike Island where it was until as of last weekend. This work is a potential future that imagines the removal of the Blackboy Clock figure. It's actually building off all these accusations of erasing history and tearing it down. It's like, what if we did just remove that object? What does the street actually look like? It's a five-minute static shot of time just passing by very normally. In fact, we're going to play it in full now, just so you guys can experience it on the big screen for a change.

[Empty Alcove plays]

DG: I know it's quite a weird prospect asking you to watch five minutes when nothing really happens, but that's the point.

LG: I was going to say when we were speaking earlier and you said that this part of the film is essentially a response to visualizing what would happen if the Clock was no longer there and the repercussions of that being nothing. I wanted to speak to you as well about why you've deliberately not shown the image of the Clock here in the Stroud presentation, especially.

DG: The whole work is about critiquing whether this object should be on public display in the present day. It felt counterintuitive to replicate that within the work. It undermines the point that's being made. That's why it's deliberately an empty alcove. It's a very beautifully mundane five minutes, because that's what it could be if we just remove the subject. I think many people don't spend five minutes looking at anything in the public sphere, really. Being able to hold your attention for that period of time and really think about what does it mean for the subject not to be there anymore, that's the other goal of the work.

Also, when this is in a gallery space, all these sounds of Stroud are spilling out and echoing around, you're immersed in what the potential day to day could be.

LG: Another really important part of this work and the next work we're going to speak on in a minute is this audio description. Within the Spike Island installation, and also at the Chisenhale installation, you are also accompanied by this recorded audio description as you're viewing the film work and these voices that are narrating the video that you can see. You can also listen to them online on the online platform, which we can also share with you. I thought the audio was actually a really interesting part of the work. You hear two voices, one being Dan and other collaborators describing the empty alcove and the building that surrounds it. This is very everyday commentary on what you're seeing and a humorous take on the whole thing.

DG: It's definitely humorous. Essentially, access material is a really big part of this whole project. The captions you saw on that video are very much built into the work. The white ones are describing what you can hear and the orange ones are more describing what you can feel. The idea of you can hear kids, but you can feel that mundanity blossoms. [glitch] -she can see. Then I critique the way that she's describing it. She's describing it in a very neutral way. To her, all she can see is something empty, but I'm butting in talking about let's talk about what's not there. Let's talk about what's been removed from the image.

It's meant to be quite a humorous back and forth, trying to reflect all the voices in the debate around the Clock that have been around ever since, basically. Yes, I always try and put something that I think is funny in my work, even if no one else really notices. I'm glad you picked up on that.

LG: Yes, I really like that part. The next thing I was going to speak about a little bit was the way that I think that audio and the work overall focuses on the problematic way in which we memorialize racist and violent imagery of the past through public monuments and architecture. I know you mentioned the Colston statue and the focus on this during the BLM movement. With the work, imagining this process of getting rid of what we no longer wish to remember as a collective society through destroying it.

The void would still maintain this memory despite being an empty space. There's this invitation to reflect on this national past and responsibility to remember through a more meaningful narrative than the figure, which I think your work proposes in a way. Why do you think the idea of destroying the figure has been continually met with that kind of resistance, if you can answer that?

DG: I think it's that kind of argument of you can't change the past. It's something that I think is the prevailing through line. There's the title of the other work that I'll show you in a moment, but the fact that it was rotting and then got restored in the '70s, and it was rotting and then got restored in 2004. It's currently on public display, and there's bird poo on it, which is corrosive, which means that it's likely rotting now. The amount of time, the amount of money that's being used to keep that alive, so to speak in perpetuity just seems disproportional.

Then also the cost to move it to a local museum. The museum in the park is the obvious place for it being the sort of museum that showcases Stroud's history. The estimated cost to do so are about £30,000, which includes taking the object down safely, making the alcove safe structurally, cleaning the bird poo off the object, treating it for woodwork, making sure it's not rotting away.

Keeping it alive in perpetuity, then moving it to the museum. That means moving something else out of the way. That means thinking about what the entire story of that museum is. I've spent so much time in the museum as a kid and it's a great resource, but it's also not changed that much. There's still rooms that have lawnmowers in, which is an important part of Stroud's history, but how does an object like this fit into that history? What other work has to be done before we even get to the point of relocating this in?

Then it's putting it in a custom display case, a custom stand, writing new signage, training everyone who works there to be able to talk people through it responsibly. All of those costs feel insane in this-- we're in a cost of living crisis. Food banks are a really important part of society when really they shouldn't be. Libraries are being closed because of cuts to public funding. Do we need to spend all this money on this one object to have it as a learning moment? That just feels wildly unproportional.

LG: Should we go on to look then at Rotting Figure

DG: Yes.

LG: -and the next video work as part of the project?

DG: Yes, so Rotting Figure is displayed and there was a big black box on the slide when you walked in. If you walk all the way around the box, double back in yourself, Rotting Figure is in there, and we'll play it now. There's a bit more going on in this one than the last one. There was movement.

[Rotting Figure plays]

LG: Cool. A question I actually just wanted to ask you now was about how that work was actually made because I haven't actually asked you that before.

DG: It was made by an amazing CG designer called Salvi. Essentially, what I did was I went through every news broadcast about the Clock, every photo of the Clock on the internet and just get this [glitch] going to build to this big, lots of rumbling and a climax moment, but it made more sense for it to slowly crumble over time. The idea is that we don't really know exactly how the subject is crumbling, whether it's natural, whether there's some human interference, but it's the process of sitting with it.

In the exhibition spaces, this is shown on a portrait 55-inch TV screen, which means that the figure you see on the screen is about the same size as the figure in real life. The idea being that you can look at it and confront it at eye level because it's at the top of this building. No one's really had the chance to look at it dead in the eyes for a while to bring it to this level, and the exhibition space makes you feel like you're part of this, you're watching it happen, really.

Yes, it's deliberately uncomfortable. I think it's so interesting to watch it here and hear everyone hold their breaths a little bit and worry about knocking something over and making a noise. I want people to be really aware that they're watching this. If they feel uncomfortable about what they're seeing, think about why they're uncomfortable about that. Why do you feel like it's uncomfortable watching this object be destroyed? Do you think it should stay up? Do you think it shouldn't be destroyed like this? That's what I'm trying to tap into.

LG: You also are viewing it in an enclosed space in the exhibition, like a black box, which I really enjoyed listening to audio and walking through the two as quite separate pieces but then it made lots of sense when you see that second piece as well.

DG: I think also when you see both works in the galleries you can almost hear one in the background while you're watching the other. When you're watching Empty Alcove in between the sort of peaceful moments you can hear these creakings in the background. Then in the gaps between the creaking when you're watching Rotting Figure, you can hear the kids playing as if everything's normal.

LG: This part of the work for me raises, and the audio which we spoke about earlier as well, yes, it goes back to these questions around the ways in which these formal histories of around slavery and colonialism are written about or interpreted in museum spaces as well. As someone who has recently started working in a museum as opposed to just a contemporary art space, it can really bring-- it really rings true you saying about the amount of [glitch]

I think your work, for me, speaks to bigger questions about the role of art as a tool for social change and how you've worked as an activist in this context but also how artists can encourage people to reimagine oppressive systems and relationships, whether that's through language and how we speak about these things with the audio guide or-- by not showing them as images and not allowing them to operate as images anymore.

I wanted to mention a writer called adrienne maree brown, who your work really speaks to for me. She offers a framework for collective change and explores how small intentional actions can build towards this larger social transformation, which I think your work really does. It feels especially relevant now that we are in a moment currently witnessing continuing forms of colonial violence and structural violence around the world, but also within the UK, growing xenophobia and the rise of the right-wing populist parties here and around the world.

For Brown, art becomes more than just something to look at or consume, again, which I think your project is really doing, it becomes a practice of self-reflection, social engagement and collective action. I think this is everything this project is doing. I think you've touched on this already about the experiences and process of making the work already, but this idea of a radical un-conservation, could you talk a little bit more about?

DG: Yes. This idea of radical un-conservation, it's the idea that we can take custody of an object in order to destroy it with intention. You can see a bit in the way that the Colston statue was treated and that it was taken out of the river and redisplayed with graffiti and all these dents lying on its back, this idea. Obviously, that's a bit different because that will be preserved, but within that museum situation. That's not going to get worse. That's going to stay how it is. This idea of being like the caring thing to do is to take this object and destroy it with intention, with meaning, in some collective process, basically.

In fact, what's really important about this project is doing it in Bristol at Spike Island, lots of residences with Colston, doing it in London, there's all these conversations happening. In Stroud, I feel like having Empty Alcove on view at SVA, [glitch] Sixth Form, they talk about an object that is on the street and you don't want to have that conversation on the street. A lot of times, this happens in WhatsApp groups, or the pub, or your living room and to have a moment where people can come together, I'm always there willing to chat to people and start having these conversations that maybe the energy was there back in 2021, 2022 and it died down a bit. Having the installation as a space for people to come and chat, I think has been really important.

LG: I think it's really great that you've pushed for it to be shown here as well as part of the project.

DG: I knew from day one, especially when the work is so much about the town in quite a complex way, it had to come to the town. It felt weird to bypass it entirely.

LG: I love that. Just a few more questions. The project obviously exists in the gallery space, but also in these other forms. I also wanted to mention the online archive, earf.info, which serves as a live archive for the project and any updates relating to the project, which I thought was a really great way of keeping the-- documenting and maintaining the momentum through that as a platform. Why was it important for you to include this in the project? I know you also commissioned some text, which we'll be sharing as well.

DG: This is a screenshot. This is a screenshot of the audio description for Empty Alcove that we talked about earlier. This is the timeline that Layla was talking about that's a history of the Clock, a history of the anti-slavery arch in Stroud, a history of my family, of me to give a human scale to things. There's also information about the contested heritage debates that happened in the UK with regards to Colston and also the Stroud political changes in that time as well.

It was important because I didn't want to overwhelm the show with information. I think the strength of the works is the fact that you can go in and sit with them and appreciate them as a visual and oral thing. This information exists online. In fact, the little business cards on your chairs, you scan the QR code, you're there. That people can go away and do the research on their own time is big. The idea is that this website launched with the show and will continue after the show closes. I think that at least five years is what the domain is. Essentially, any updates that come along the way, they'll just get added to the bottom of this chronological list.

The essays that we've commissioned for the project. There's one on everyone's chairs as well, which is by Lola Olufemi, who's an amazing writer, who writes about Empty Alcove, the work specifically. They're also available online. The first one is by a curator called Tendai Mutambu, who writes a history of Black and more objects and automatons. Lola's is the second. We've got a really great text launching in the coming months by Tatenda Shamiso, who's an amazing playwright who's written this. I won't give it away, but a monologue soundscape. Then, we've got a short story coming up by Vanessa Onwuemezi, who wrote Dark Neighbourhood for Fitzcarraldo Editions.

Essentially, it's building this constellation of thinking. The timeline is very factual. These new commissioned responses bring in other perspectives. Alongside that, I'm also writing this tour diary-

LG: I’ve read that.

DG: -which is an account of what it means to make this work public with regards to the social, political impact, but also what does it mean for me to put in something that I've spent so long working on and be like, "It's yours now."

LG: I think it shares that embodied research process that you've also embarked on, which I think it's really interesting as someone who's grown up in Stroud and your lived experience of engaging with the Clock, but also how it resonates with in this world that you're creating with all these different writers and people who outside of Stroud as well, how this case study or example of imagining an alternative reality sits with different people and appeals to them, and how it supports these dissenting and oppositional conversations, which challenge the colonial models of education and also administration within councils, within schools, in museums and arts organizations and other institutions. Meeting lots of different people and audiences.

I don't know if you wanted to talk a little bit more about the text. I know you wanted to read some of Lola's texts out as well.

DG: I'm just going to read the start of Lola's text. You guys can read it in your own time. You can read it on the website. I just wanted to give a bit of time just to introduce it as a call to action. It's called, Let's Put It Plainly for Once. "Let's put it plainly for once. I want the statue, The Clock, the monument of national pride to wither and die, putrefy, spoil, fester. I want its innards, a rotting black mass, to spill through the streets, one great thick flood, devouring building after building, washing away entire sections of the body politic, changing the nature of the soil, leaving inside it traces of this great disaster for new generations to find.

In this image, I, and by extension, Black subjects, emerge the victors. I know my dreams of destruction have a pedagogical function. I know they exalt my consciousness. This, this is the right kind of destruction. I just know it. How? I just do. I look at the statue, The Clock, the monument of national pride, and I am confused by the nuances claimed by certain fighting factions.

I think I know a theory or historical event well enough. I think I have mastered thinking through contradiction. I think I have survived in the entrails of this constitutional monarchy long enough to form critical opinion. I think I have read enough surveys, answered enough questionnaires and requests for comment, scrolled through vox pops, devoured enough grainy video footage of sinking effigies, become astute as digesting cultural conversation to understand the problem.

I have grasped the colonial aftermath of depravity with both hands, but all I have to do is look up, then to my left and to my right, and there is the Black and more. Young boy, young Black boy, child, slave, negation subject is persisting. There are no forgotten towns or cities, no more innocent than the country that birthed them. There are no backward people unable to grasp historical rupture. They understood the move from feudalism to industrial capitalism. They understood the move from the house to the street. They understood the closure of the factory. They understood the seizure of land. They understand the boy. Empire's enduring promise, sustained and devastating pressure which gives way to– [glitch]

LG: Thank you for inviting me today. I don't know if we want to-- if there's anything else we want to just talk about, if we want to open up to questions.

DG: I think let's open up to questions. This really is a safe space to ask whatever. We've got a mic here if you want to come to it. Yes. As long as you're respectful, feel free to ask away.

LG: We can also pass it around.

DG: Yes.

[applause]

LG: Does anyone have any questions, or just reflections, or any comments? You don't have to use the microphone if you don't want to. Yes?

Audience 1: That's a lot of stuff. What do you want to see done then with this going forward and how do you feel about that?

DG: I feel like what I want to see is for it to be destroyed or no longer take up space. I'm aware that is somewhat impossible but what I do want is a renewed call to action for people to try and make a change. I've been driving a lot of this myself for a while, so I'm hoping other people can pick up where I've started and try and make something happen. Yes, we're coming up to four years since the Stroud consultation, five years since Colston in June, which is next month, and this is very much still here, still existing. Yes, a change is what I want.

LG: Yes, and I think going back to what you said earlier about 70% of people in Stroud wanting it to be gone, it feels like there is that potential for collective action to make that happen. Yes, it's interesting to hear what you specifically want. Does anyone else-- Yes?

Audience 2: In historical context there are primary and secondary sources, and this is an example of a primary source. As a teacher, I would always go towards a primary source as a much less problematic subject for discussion because it's there. It's easier to engage with a primary source, especially with children, rather than the conjecture of having a secondary source, which can tail off into opinion.

DG: Yes, it is undoubtedly a primary source. I think the website timeline does a lot in collating all the information that is available. It's more in-depth than Wikipedia, which is no mean feat, I think. I guess, for me, there are so many pictures of this clock online now, like from all the news articles, like if you just Google ‘Blackboy Clock’ and click on images, you're inundated with a sea of images of it.

Does that object still need to take up space or can you use an image of it as a primary source? When we talk about history, so many textbooks are filled with images of things that no longer exist or pictures that people commissioned to commemorate some war, but you don't have to take someone to a battlefield to understand that war happened there. Does that make sense?

Audience 2: Yes, but I would also say that if you do, it's a more direct experience. Do you know what I mean? If you go to Efrat or if you go to the Somme, there's a visceral element to it. I'm just wondering how you relate to that immediacy that you get from the actual object.

DG: Yes, it's definitely an immediate feeling. I can't walk past it without looking at it now. I think it's imprinted itself on me as like this is something that is to be looked at. Whereas for a lot of people, in fact, enough people who've come through to the show already have been like, "Oh, I didn't even know it was still there," or "Has it come down now?" I think not many people look at it already. Whether it still needs to exist for these conversations to happen is-- yes. It's a good complicated question. Yes.

Audience 3: Can I also say, I was thinking of that same thing about the sort of historical context. I was thinking about, at the end of the Second World War, there was 20,000 death camps. There was calls from both the Jewish community and the Allies for them to be leveled and destroyed. Of those 20,000, I think only eight are preserved, but the overwhelming call from the Jewish community was for them to be preserved. Because if they're not there, then you're not talking about them.

I think it's a nuanced question. I actually personally don't have an opinion about the conversation. That's what made me think about, say, Auschwitz. Because it's there, it makes us remember something that we don't remember. That's painful for the Jewish community. It's painful for the German community, all of the death camps that are still preserved in Poland. Yes, it's that nuance. I like that ambiguity, which is positive for us to reflect.

DG: Yes. No, I think nuance is such an important thing to think about with those examples and with the Clock. Yes, the idea of Empty Alcove is that just because it's empty doesn't mean it's forgotten. With a plaque at ground level, with an increased awareness that something was there and is no longer there, that conversation still remains. Maybe the question is, because this is on a public-facing building that's on a residential street, the idea that you can walk past it on the daily and still be confronted with it, as opposed to making the choice to go to a destination and have that active remembrance, that's the thing to weigh up.

LG: Yes?

Audience 4: I wanted to add to that because I think I agree. One of the things that this article has also added is about innocence. I remember years ago, again, growing up in Stroud, when you walked to school, you'd see this clock and you didn't have the choice but to see it. Again, there's a distinctive distinction between what you memorialize and what is outdated. I remember what you said about the empty alcove because the way the shadows fell, there's so much significance. It wasn't like we'd simply forget what would be there, like what would we be pointing our attention to.

There was, as I said, this distinction between what are we proud of and what do we want to almost finally forget. That might be that with the empty alcove, maybe with a plaque saying what once was there, again, I will add a primary source because we're looking at it, you might hear kids' voices in the background, you might just not see all those innocents who walked past on the way to school. You might not see something high [glitch] details.

Then, again, thinking about pain, okay, yes, you walked past it, you can't ignore it. Maybe it's an empty alcove. Maybe it's a really detailed image that you're looking at. Again, I would say there's a big difference between the two. You look at it, and you think, "Okay, well, what can we forget? What would be okay to forget?" Then if you didn't want to forget, as you said, the secondary source, the detailed information of what once stood there.

I will just one more point add. It's been a few years since I remember this. Five years ago, I remember it being like the article in the Stroud News and Journal, I remember it being like, yes, someone saw this on the way to school, and it was actually quite hurtful. Okay, an empty alcove maybe isn't so hurtful. It's not just [coughing] It's not just a case of what we want to memorialize, but something that's also outdated.

DG: Yes, that's a very astute response.

LG: Yes, I think when something is objectively racist, it is, yes, interesting to think about what we tolerate now as a society in terms of public images and things like that on display. We spoke earlier about-- I think you gave an example of a pub in Essex where some racist imagery had been removed because someone complained about it and I think, yes, if something is objectively racist then I think there is a case for doing, for doing that. That's my view on it.

I have a different experience to Dan as well. Obviously, I didn't grow up here. I didn't see the Clock every day and I have a totally different experience, but that's the way I would rationalize a decision around it, I suppose, as someone not from here.

DG: Also the question is, if it's staying as a reminder, who is that reminder for? Different people will naturally interpret that in so many different ways. It's assuming that we all need to be reminded of it so that we don't forget, whereas for some people, this is a lived experience they're already remembering, already aware of, there's not that baseline. We all have to remember this in the same way.

LG: I think as a curator, there's different ways of dealing with [glitch] thoughts to counter that problematic history. Yes, there's different strategies and frameworks, I suppose, that can be proposed. I think that's the really interesting thing about this project. Yes, but it's, obviously, not in a museum. It's in a public space and that has its own set of strategies that are actually possible and not possible for it. That's what I think is really interesting is that there's just a lot of different perspectives on it.

Dan: Yes, with Empty Alcove, specifically, a big touchstone for this was the Colston plinth in Bristol that no longer has the statue on. The plinth's on this island in the middle of some roads. There's lots of skaters there. There's some benches. People just sit there. The fact that that plinth as an object still stands as a reminder. There is now some new signage up against it as well, but that being empty, there was a bit where it was temporarily replaced by a statue of a Black woman called Jen Quinn made by a white artist-- no, it was made by Mark Quinn and it was a Black activist called Jen. That was controversial because he put it there without consulting everyone.

The fact that it's empty now stands as like something used to be here and that holds away. That's why people have asked me like, "Oh, would you replace the figure with something else, like a more positive representation or something?" It's like, it's quite hard to because it's always going to be competing against what was there before.

LG: In relationship to it?

DG: Yes. It would always be seen as, "Oh, that was the thing that replaced the racist object," which I think is why it's important to leave it empty, embrace that void.

LG: 100%. Does anyone else have any questions? Thank you, by the way, for the-- Yes? Oh, there's two people. Sorry.

Audience 5: I imagine-- first of all, there's not many Black people who live in Stroud, and hardly anybody-- I'd like to hear what Black people feel about-- I know most of the Black people in Stroud, actually. Well I've met them. I'd like to hear what they feel. If I was [glitch] I think your project's great. Also, being a former resident of South London, particularly Brixton, for 40 years, I'm only imagining this. I cannot imagine what the reaction to the Blackboy Clock would be. There's still quite a lot of Blackboy lanes in England, particularly. There's also loads of stuff's gone without--

I think it's a huge project. There's some interesting research. I'd quite like you to do a film where you get different people coming up and just speaking as plainly as the Clock was able to, just to speak plainly about them, almost vox pops, just to see what people say. You can then edit them. You don't have to-- it's your art. It's good to make it a piece of work. I think actually it's a great-- I'm quite jealous. [chuckles]

I'm not an artist, but you've got a piece of work here to approach in a really relatively seemly manner. I don't know about the Clock. I love objects, vintage, old objects. I'm aware of all the old objects. I've got children's books that refer to Black people in what's now regarded as a derogatory way. Actually, it wasn't at the time, although it was inherently derogatory. I've got a dress with the name Sambo Brand, I've got a dress in my old ex-shop with the label Sambo Brand. I have a feeling it probably came from the Caribbean, actually. I might be wrong. I don't know. It might be interesting. I could show it to you if you like.

Two Indian women who helped me set up my shop said, "Oh, look, James, if you're going to sell this, you've got to just cut that out." I said, "No, you can't cut that out because it's mine at the moment. It'd be treated with great respect. I don't know what to do with it." I feel the same way about the Clock. I'm not sure about a museum. I love what happened in Bristol. I think the fact in Stroud that the clock hasn't gone at all is because there's a liberality. They were just an historical reference to what's happened to some of the names, Dark Lane around here.

Black Boy Lane in Tottenham, it's somewhere in North London, has just been renamed in 2020. Haringey, renamed it La Rose. That Black Boy Lane was named after Charles II or something. Also, some of them, they go for another king or royalty. It's all inherently privileged and oppressive. The main thing is, I would like, as a White person, a symbol of underdog repression. I feel uncomfortable, because it would focus-- I wouldn't feel equal. Anyway. I love what you're doing.

DG: Thank you. I think you're right in that the Clock is very much a focal point of all these attitudes and debates that are very much outdated in the present day. When we did the consultation, we got 1,600 responses that I showed some of earlier on the stage. Those responses are all anonymized, but if you go through the survey data, you can see that the whole range of people responded to the object. I think my work in this regard has been starting up conversations about it. I think if someone else wants to gather those vox pops, that's a different project for someone else to explore.

I think it's more the case of-- potholes are a really good example. Lots of local news articles about potholes have people who are affected by the pothole standing by the pothole, pointing at the pothole and saying they're annoyed by the pothole. I feel like if you were to make a film asking Black people what they thought about the object, standing by the object, pointing at the object, it's a similar comparison. I think you almost need to think of a world in which you don't need a Black person telling you it's offensive for you to think it's offensive and want to make a change. Does that make sense?

Audience 5: Yes, I think it would be great to consult the people it objectifies, even if it's-- I do think that's quite important. I don't think-- because [glitch]

DG: The Clock predates it.

Audience 5: What?

DG: So the clock predates the arch so the clock was made before the abolition of slavery.

Audience 5: I know. I'm wondering, what was its function? Was it made--

Audience 6: Sorry, could I-- because I had a question, it's very interesting what you said-

Audience 5: Sorry I was going on a bit, yes.

Audience 6: I was just wondering, Dan, the way in which you've got to have this colonial symbol die is quite unpleasant. I was wondering, did that come from the rotting-- as you just mentioned before, the way in which the statue rots, or how important was it to have it go in this way?

Dan: I think, yes, it was more about the tensions that come with watching something fall apart. I watched a lot of videos of tower blocks collapsing, icebergs collapsing. With tower blocks, specifically, there's this moment where everyone comes together and watches it and there's a countdown and we all revel in the aftermath. Yes, I think I wanted to visualize what that rotting could look like, given that the rotting has happened twice already. It's just not been watched or documented in that way.

Audience 7: Hi, Dan. I used to be your teacher in school and my students came here today to talk to you. I was just wondering about the conversations, I haven’t heard from them yet but I know they were pretty awestruck. I know they had a great time, and you could see it. They're very young, 17-year-olds, I was wondering, because you were talking about someone else doing something. I agree, it's for other people to do something about it. I want to have a discussion with them about the impact on them and what they want to do. I have two questions, really. One, have you had much unpleasant-- have been attacked a lot on social media, so I'm presuming the answer is yes.

Dan: Yes.

Audience 7: That's something I'm very wary of in terms of encouraging my students to do something, because it's a really hard thing to put up with, isn't it? Then there's a whole load that will be mobilized against something like that, and that's a really hard thing for young people to go into. I was wondering, you certainly have some insightful questions, what were they interested in doing, and how do you think we can encourage them, perhaps, to take up the baton and do something without exposing them to the horror of the attack that they're going to be exposed to?

Dan: Yes, I think just to give you an overview of a [glitch] a lot of stuff coming directly from social media, in emails. I got a phone call one day saying that the group Britain First were potentially going to come and doorstop me. I think a lot of that came from the fact that within the narrative of the consultation, I was put front and center, it was like a human angle to think of things through.

I would definitely encourage students, if they want to make a change, to do it as part of a collective, not let one person shoulder the weight of everything, which is something that, whilst I had a lot of support, I think a collective effort could have been more useful for my mental health in the long term. They hadinsightful questions. It was more-- they came to see the show at SVA and they walked up the hill, so I don't know what conversation they had at the top, but it was questions about how interestingly mundane the video was.

The fact that you can sit with it, and if you don't know the context, it's quite a relaxing experience. You're sat there in a gallery, birdsong, kids playing, all that kind of stuff, but just how non-interesting or how seamless it looked, that was something that they picked up on when they were talking about it. How much of a change, but at the same time how little of a change it would be if Empty Alcove became reality. There's another question right in the back corner.

Audience 8: This is entirely half formed, so I'm going to apologize in advance if it doesn't [unintelligible] There's something, for me, about the nature of oppression and then the nature of allyship that comes through in what you've done, because it is about understanding the perspective of the gentleman where there is something about oppression that would make it very, very difficult for somebody who is part of a minority to come forward and say, "I don't want this." There's something, for me, about understanding the nature of oppression and also understanding, as a White person, the nature of allyship.

My worry is, Dan, that we've moved into a post-truth era, where actually a lot of what different groups who are trying to soak up difficult feelings which are racist and stuff like that, is all about [glitch] I just wondered in the context of what you're doing, and in the context of what your film is saying, whether you could say a little bit about, A, the context of oppression and allyship and where we are now, where allyship is very, very-- it's not difficult, but it's made difficult by some of the narratives that we have.

DG: Yes, I think with allyship particularly, it's a case of-- I think the website is really important, actually, as part of the project. I'm giving you the history, the keys. You can go through and look at every time the council approved restoring, whether that's the county council or the town council. I'm giving you the information to go away with and digest and figure out what to do next. I almost don't want to give you a template response that you could write to, an MP with or a council with, but I want to give you the information to write something that feels personal, where you speak from your heart and say, this is what I want to see with this object. The post-truth thing is interesting.

Audience 8: I just wonder if it makes it a much more difficult context than when you started this in 2020.

DG: I think definitely, yes, in 2021, 2022, there was that moment where people were jumping on this as statues, culture war, that was the big thing. I think now, as a wider society, the debates moved on past statues. We're thinking about Palestine, we're thinking about trans rights, and statues aren't really at the forefront of people's minds right now. That's not to say that they're not important, but it's a bit on the back burner, but these objects still remain in place.

LG: Yes, I think that idea raises some interesting points. I do think, even if statues aren't at the forefront, I think in terms of, finding racism offensive and being an ally, I find that Clock offensive. I'm not a Black person, but I think, yes, it's about, like Dan's saying, his role as an artist of sharing information and giving that space for people to then pick up their own way of enacting changes and lobbying together like younger people may want to do.

I think just sparking even that interaction with [glitch] continuing to impact them, or I was just shocked by some of our history, maybe a bit more than other generations. I think, yes, it's about everyone doing a bit of work themselves, I suppose, and all figuring out what our role can be in terms of supporting the cause or fight against racism.

Audience 9: Just in terms of the, if not now, when, that was a question that you ask and would normally look forward. I find myself thinking, what happens if you look backwards and think, when would have been a good time for the statue to have been removed in a, "Yes, this is the moment." I don't know how many different moments there are. The abolition of slavery in the UK might have been it. The abolition of slavery in America might have been it. The end of the First World War and the contribution of the Commonwealth might have been it or the Race Relations Act.

It's odd how many times it could have been the moment to get rid of it, and then 2020, you've said, that felt like the moment, and that moment's gone as well. On the timeline, you could almost start to slot them in. Anyway, yes, comment over.

DG: There's definitely a lot of moments. I think some of the more obvious ones are, when it's actively rotting. A really good example is when it was the 200th anniversary of the abolition of slavery in the early 2000s.

LG: Yes.

DG: That's when the Anti-Slavery Arch was last restored. No, it was last restored a couple of months ago, but before then, that was a big moment to, we're celebrating this big physical icon of anti-slavery-ism on the other side of Stroud and yet this clock has been restored, a couple of years before.

LG: Yes, I was quite shocked to hear that it had been restored in 2004, when we were speaking earlier, because that doesn't actually feel like that long ago.

Audience 10: I just wondered whether during the debate about what to do, since 77% of the Stroud don't want it to be there, I understand there's difficulties planning permission, taking it down. Was there any discussion about, well, can we get this to cover it up in the meantime?

DG: There was definitely that discussion, but they haven't. The clock owners haven't covered it up, it's very much on them, I think. There's a question right at the back.

Audience 11: Just similar to that, actually, really. I wonder how important do you feel it is that something's done through the correct channels, so to speak, as opposed to direct action? I'm not going to go up on the ladder, I feel I'd fall off. Do you think that's important? Do you think that's important to, legitimize the outcome of doing something about it? Would you personally be happy if it was just gone the next day?

DG: I think legitimizing it does have an importance in the fact that whoever has control of it has listened and learned and decided that actually this no longer needs to be on display. That feels like an important part of growth. But if it did go, then I wouldn't say put it back up, we need to take it down properly. Not to put words in one's mouth. Question over there and then on the side. Yes?

Audience 12: I'm interested in how the work engages deeply with public space, the politics of public space, the emotions of public space and an organization, and the questioning of that of racism in public space without being full-blown public artwork. That you've got this website that, as you've said, will continue. I'm very aware of all the resources that have gone into creating this commission and the role that art is being given to create public conversation and the value of that. Of course, these exhibitions at Spike and at Chisenhale are halfway through and then once that's over, we still just have the website.

For you, what's the role of art beyond this period of exposure? Is there a call for continued commissioning in response to the plot or in response to the conversations that we're having, or is it more a matter of activism? Is it a hybrid of the two, but also very aware that we're in a very stripped-back time for resources, for art to happen?

DG: I think it is a hybrid of the two. I don't want to have the monopoly on a subject. I approach the resources available from an art perspective to try and channel them into making a change. Whether that's making the website free to access, a free resource, whether that's having the opportunity to have these discussions here in Stroud, show the work in Stroud, invite different thinkers in from different organizations down in Bristol, down in London. I think activism is the way forward. Art won't change the world, but it will be a catalyst for making a change.

Audience 13: You mentioned that it was about £30,000. Is that one of the main excuses being used at the moment, the amount of money that it costs, that as a piece of art, it's not being taken down?

DG: I don't know if it's an excuse, but I think it's definitely a factor.

Audience 13: I'm sure that if people really cared, that they could raise £30,000 [unintelligible]

DG: I think if that route is gone down by the council, they will commit to spending that money. It's just a case of the other steps falling into place for that to happen. I think the £30,000 wouldn't be spent in one go, if that makes sense. I think it's easy for the council or everybody to justify spending that across the amount of work it takes to happen. I think that amount has been used as a scaremongering tactic by some people to dissuade them from making change.

Audience 13: Some of the people in the community, or the activists, or the people who say they're allies, couldn't we raise £30,000?

DG: It's certainly doable. I would just rather it doesn't have to be raised. I think it shouldn't take that much money to make this change. If there was a cheaper solution that didn't involve this need to re-platform this object somewhere else to make a change, I think that could certainly happen. I think the prohibitive cost has been used for people being like, "Oh, let's not think about it. Let's not do something about it." You're definitely right, yes. In the front row, yes?

Audience 14: Hi, Dan. Going back to the child and the representation of the Black boy, at the time in Georgian Cheltenham, the child was almost like a pet. Then once the child wasn't cute anymore, the child was shipped off to the plantations, mostly. In terms of thinking, putting up a statue, maintaining it is a political and historic event, so destroying a statue in itself, would you say that is a political statement, a historical statement?

DG: 100%. I think it almost carries as much resonance, yes. Taking something down and destroying it has as much resonance as putting it up. You're doing it with an agenda. Either way, whether that's explicit or implicit, yes.

I would say we're running out of time a little bit. Does anybody have any last questions, remarks?

[silence]

DG: No? Cool.

LG: Thank you again everyone for coming. Thank you to Dan for all of his work.

[applause]

DG: Thanks to Layla as well.

[applause]